Back to the penthouse for a proper deep dive.
Introduction by Pontus Alv
I was 15 years old when I took my first trip to SF. I’d been on Mad Circle flow for a while through Streetstyle Distribution, and after connecting with Gorm Boberg, I was able to hook up with Justin earlier that summer in Sweden. This trip to San Francisco was basically my audition to officially get on the team.
I remember Justin coming to pick my friend and I up at the airport and he had this classic '90s Beamer. A red one. And I would soon find out that Justin is not only a speedball behind the wheel, he’s also a mad-ball stressdog, in general. Just full of aggression. It’s funny to look back on this initial meeting now, because I can only imagine how angry he must’ve been when our bags got lost with all of our clothes and boards inside.
Once we finally got to his car without our bags, he took off through the streets of San Francisco like a fucking racecar. Full blast. I wasn’t used to this at all. Because where I’m from is totally flat, here we are flying up and speeding down what seemed like fucking mountains. It was crazy. And it was either that or watching him completely stress out over traffic. Screaming at cars, banging on the steering wheel. I honestly thought the guy was nuts. (Side note: I think he actually did end up buying a Formula One-style track car years later, but that’s another story.)
Because I was now in need of a new setup, he took me straight to FTC, which was like the dream skateshop back then. They had all the latest boards and shit I’d never seen before. Plus, there are heroes of mine hanging out in front of the shop amongst all the SF heads. I just remember thinking to myself, “Holy shit, dude! What the fuck?!”
As we walked in, Justin announces me to everyone, “Yo, this is my new kid!”
“Alright, what you do need?”
And with that, they just start handing me stuff. Boards, trucks, Golden State Wheels, a box of FTC shirts… everything. I couldn’t even believe it.
After FTC, we went to his apartment. Justin and Blabac were living together at the time, and all I can remember is them doing crazy bong hits, one after the other, with American football on the television. I had no idea where I was, and could barely even speak any English anyway.
Justin had an office in the basement downstairs, and he’d be down there as soon as he woke up to work on Mad Circle. Super serious. Seven in the morning, boom, he was on that computer busting out shit nonstop. Banging on keys, editing shit and screaming… just ROAR! So intense. I remember sitting down there, watching him work, and it kinda tripped me out back then, but I fully understand it now. He was just so dedicated. Whatever it was, whether it was animation or a video edit, he was going to learn it. He was going to sit down in that fucking dungeon for however long it took and figure it out. He cared so much.
That’s why everything he put out on Mad Circle was so next level. You can call him a “control freak” or a “perfectionist”, but more importantly, he’s just a really hard worker. And if he’s gonna do anything, he’s going to do it to the best of his abilities. He’s like that with all his projects. If Mad Circle was going to put out a cap, he was going to make certain that it was the absolute sharpest, highest-quality cap you’ve ever seen. Always top notch, never cutting any corners. That’s the standard he held himself to, because he probably couldn’t have lived with himself otherwise. Only the best, which is what he expected from his riders, too. After all, we were the Five Flavors. We were his chosen ones, and we wanted to honor that.
I had a lot of good times, great sessions, and truly inspiring moments of creativity with both Justin and Blabac. Working with them on all these different projects, it was like being in "Skateboard Company Owner School". I felt like a little mouse in the corner, observing these two masters at work. Watching things come together, step by step, all the way through to when the final product finally come out, like, “Alright, that’s how that is made.”
It was such a valuable experience for me to draw upon when it came time to do my own stuff. I’ve learned so much from him. —Alv
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CBI: When we first chatted in 2011, I wasn’t fully aware of your admitted “streak of Cali redneck” with tenures in both the Spikes and Duane-era Circle A. It got me wondering how you see yourself: fresh or hesh?
Justin: (laughs) This is actually a great entry point into some things I’ve been thinking about lately. Because my career spanned several different periods when there were some real fundamental shifts going on. Do I see myself as fresh or hesh? The answer is both, really.
I knew you were going to say that.
(laughs) But I have to! This is about a self-perspective developed over time, in relation to influences within those periods and how one responds to different inputs. And that’s in addition to my own native personality underlying everything and how this all balances out.
As it relates to the hesh aspect in my skating, that period was a very developmental time for me. I found it exhilarating to skate with people who lived the ideas of that Duane Peters mindset, who I respected very much. I feel like he did a lot to insert certain attitudes into skateboarding that were needed for it to progress. I took aspects of that which meshed well with my own experience, and used those to advance my skateboarding. This was all very early for me, which would serve to influence my outlook going forward and what would eventually become Mad Circle. That company was largely an expression of those inputs as filtered through the ’90s era.
The '70s and ’80s started out for me as primarily centered around transition. That’s where my skill set really developed, but then skating began to modify itself greatly. Soon, there became this great pressure to adapt to the ongoing progression in skating, which in the ’90s would’ve been the tech side of street skating. That particular side was going through vast changes at an accelerated rate, which not only made it exciting but also the dominant paradigm of that era. And I feel like that’s how most people see me. It’s interesting because while skating did become very partitioned during that time, I personally never drew a hard line in my skating. That’s never where my head was at.
So, is that okay? Am I allowed to be both? Can I wear the spikes and the Timberlands?
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| photo: yelland |
(laughs) I feel like you might be one of the 90’s sneakiest ATVs.
(laughs) I don’t want to say “yes” because I feel like that’s arrogant. I mean, I was a slash dog, then I sorta became a fresh dog, and now I’m a “slesh” dog. But there were definitely some lower-profile ATV guys doing their thing back then, like Karma, with Chris Senn being the standard bearer. Dune comes to mind as a sneaky ATV, too.
What I enjoyed most in this shift towards street skating was all the progression, especially living in San Francisco. It was one of those scenes where street skating really came into its own, and I moved there when I was 18 primarily because of that. It’s funny because whenever I go to the skatepark now, I try to skate more like Senn or Karma, but at the time, I made the conscious decision to alter my skating a bit because I liked the direction street skating was going. That’s where my inspiration was, and I’ve carried that curiosity through every “adventure” since.
Unfortunately, street skating went so deep into this progressive side of things that, for a while, it became more about achieving new variations versus advancing an equilibrium. At the time, this progression could often came at the expense of function.
I like how you put that.
You gotta remember these variations were all new because street skating was still so young. It was all so different, which led down some pretty odd roads in the name of exploration. And that’s why you start to see such a reactionary period around ’95 or ‘96 to a lot of the overly technical progression going on just a few years prior.
But it started out so exciting. You’re learning tricks that didn’t even exist a week ago.
Oh, for sure. It was all moving so fast. And not just the tricks, the evolution of board shapes was moving rapidly as well. I remember going down to Embarcadero one day with my new board. I'd just made this shape maybe two weeks before. Jovontae Turner also showed up that day with a completely new shape, which was a further variation towards that football/popsicle shape. Compared to his, my shape still had a little curve to it... and seeing his spun me out. My board felt dated already, and I’d only made it two weeks prior. Things were moving that fast.
Everything was forming itself, both culturally and athletically. It actually got to the point where style largely took a backseat to “new”. It wasn’t as much about doing tricks well at the time, you just had to do the trick, basically proving that it was possible. This was a minor component very specific to that late '80s/early '90s era and then you never really saw it again, but it was something skateboarding had to go through in order to evolve.
I first heard of you through Bob Schmelzer’s Circle A, which you called “the best company that never fully developed.” How so?
Just that it spawned and ended so soon. It had some really great riders and I think the wood was solid, but the company only lasted a few years. I’ve always felt like my first board should’ve been on Circle A. I was on my way to getting that pro status but just couldn’t get there in time. I’d made it all the way to the 1989 Amateur National Finals with Circle A, and right before my run, Bob tells me “Circle A is out of business. You ride for Poorhouse now.”
I actually think Poorhouse was trendsetting as well, despite its short lifespan, too. It helped set the baseline for brands expressing that feeling of subculture transition, like Anti-Hero, Lowcard, Zero, Deathwish, Creature... perhaps Baker and even DGK come to mind. And while the Lucero brand came beforehand, Black Label was clearly another one of these baseline brands that came afterward. Circle-A and Poorhouse are foundational to this same genre of skating. Poorhouse was a fantastic concept and team, too.
Yeah, how come you didn’t stick around for Poorhouse?
I basically had to move on for survival reasons. In addition to the shifts we’ve discussed, skateboarding was starting to contract. And honestly, the way Circle A suddenly ended really shook me up. Because these were small DIY companies, flying by the seat of their pants. Making it to the Am Finals was a big thing back then, so I had several companies reach out to me. I had to acknowledge that any skateboarding career I might have wasn’t going to last forever, which is how I ended up going pro for Dogtown.
No offense against Dogtown, but in terms of my personal affinity for Bob and his creative direction, I would’ve rather turned pro for Circle A. Bob even had a graphic for me that never got used. A dragon with a backwards baseball hat and smoke puffs coming out of its nose, which was really characteristic of my style at the time.
Bob was just a guy who could make things happen. He had fantastic advertising and a really good eye for photography. A really good eye for picking skateboarders for his team, too. He could sense the value that each rider brought, from both a personality and skateboarding standpoint. It would’ve been interesting to see where that could’ve led.
Who were some of the other companies courting you prior to Dogtown?
I feel like there were a lot of people coming around because they knew Circle A might falter. I remember Danny Sargent asking me to ride for Concrete Jungle, which would’ve been sick. And there was also an East Coast company expressing some interest at the time, too. I don’t want to say their name, because maybe I remember it wrong, but it did feel like they were interested.
I believe Rick Ibaseta was a West Coast rider for this same East Coast company.
Yes, I think we’re talking about the same company. I see these guys and Concrete Jungle as formative street skating companies. I’d actually put Circle A in that same vein as well.
The reason I went with Dogtown was largely due to the history there. Plus, they were trying to do this new thing up North. I was already on Thunder and Spitfire; Dogtown was going to be under that same roof. It just made sense. Shrewgy was basically my Mike Ternasky.
Was going pro part of the deal?
Yeah, I ended up moving to San Francisco from Salinas and they turned me pro. I remember somebody there telling me I was "Eric Dressen’s replacement" because he’d just left for Santa Cruz. I guess that was their thinking.
Again, they were trying something new at the time. And one thing I’ve found over the years is that whenever you have external influences involved who didn’t create a brand, and they’re implementing their own ideas of how that brand should be run, it never seems to work. It always tends to be more disruptive than anything else. This is what seemed to be going on at Dogtown at the time.
“The New Dog in Town”. Do you remember shooting that ad over the doghouse?
I do remember that! I also remember people making fun of me for that, too. (laughs)
(laughs) Who said something?
Just another instance of people talking shit. That was much more prominent back then, especially compared to how it is now. There was always a bit of a fire poker-thing going on.
I was admittedly a little uncomfortable with the concept, but at that point in my career, I was just gonna take the instruction. I honestly kinda like it now. It’s a little kitsch.
But you weren’t on Dogtown for long…
Yeah, I was only on there for eight months or so. I had a lot of things going on in my personal life that led to my switch to New Deal.
So, how did New Deal enter the picture?
Well, I was already skating with Rick Ibaseta and Danny Sargent every day in San Francisco. And I already knew Andy Howell…
That’s almost half the team right there.
Yeah, and I had the Ed connection through Circle A, so there was already a comfort level. I wasn’t consciously looking for another sponsor, but when you’re active and essentially in the prime of your career, people are looking at you. They’d just formed this company and I’m sure I had mentioned being unhappy at Dogtown to Rick or Danny. Not angling to get on the team, just in conversation. They must’ve seen the opportunity there… and honestly, it would’ve been pretty dumb for me not to have made that move.
Oh, that was a no brainer.
It just made sense. They had a wide parameter of styles and it felt like a good fit. I also loved their early aesthetic, too. Obviously, people had used neon colors before, but what Andy did was totally different. Nobody had gone in that more street direction before with the thick black lines. It was a totally different visual concept.
It would’ve been nice to have stayed on Dogtown longer, but it just didn’t seem grounded. It had moved away from its roots, which is where Dogtown needs to be.
Dogtown needs to stay in Dogtown.
Yeah, but I really like my Dogtown graphic. I think it’s unique within that cross motif, and the fact that I even have one of those boards is amazing. I’m so glad I kept one.
What about “Just A Goon”? That's a reworking of your second graphic after leaving for New Deal, right?
(laughs) I don’t have one of those. If any collectors out there have one, please reach out and I’ll buy it off you.
Was that just the remaining stock?
I think so. It was this cartoony graphic, which they changed from “Justin Girard” to “Just A Goon”. And I understand why they were upset. They were trying to do this thing and I bailed on them. I get it.
It’s just that everything was moving so fast. They were trying to reorient the brand, but you got the sense that they were taking that H-Street model and putting all these amateurs on the team. It started to feel like it was all marketing, which I wasn’t used to seeing in skateboarding. There wasn’t the personal relationship there, like how it was with Circle A, and I’m the type of person who wants to feel like I’m genuinely part of something.
Take the initial graphic direction for New Deal, for example. They’re all pretty uniform, but each rider was given the opportunity to insert their own ideas into their stuff. Like, Andy Howell did my first two New Deal models and I remember giving him the initial concepts I wanted, which he then expanded upon greatly… but it was a close collaboration. You didn’t get that at many other companies. That’s more of what I wanted, and I was lucky to have had that at New Deal. I had input at DTS as well, but when they shifted away from the Venice aesthetic, something was lost. I think that was the external input. Somewhat ironically, this is also part of what happened with my own brand.
But didn’t Fausto sit you down and essentially threaten to blackball you from Thrasher if you left?
Well, he did. They did blackball me from Thrasher. Not that it was said specifically, but I sensed implicit undertones, like “You know, you have a big advantage at Dogtown because we own the magazine, too.”
I really wasn’t sure what he meant at the time, but I soon found out when I wasn’t in Thrasher for years… “blackballed” might be too strong a word.“Maligned” is probably more like it. They definitely weren’t overpromoting me with coverage beforehand, but it wasn’t until I started advertising with Mad Circle that I began appearing in Thrasher again.
I was just so young. I think the possibility of that happening may have crossed my mind for a second, but I’m not sure how seriously I took it. Regardless, I knew I couldn’t let that be my sole reason for staying. I couldn’t pass up New Deal out of fear of retaliation.
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| photo: ogden |
Is that Visalia Skate Camp footage in Useless Wooden Toys from when you first got on New Deal?
I think so. Because after I quit Dogtown, I went straight there to meet up with the guys and finalize my addition to the team. If you look closely at that footage, I’m still riding my Dogtown board there. I’d just put some New Deal stickers on it.
I love how that part is almost edited sequentially. Judging by the outfits, it looks like all your sessions are edited together.
(laughs) You’re right! It’s not like people weren’t asserting creative direction onto videos at the time, but there was definitely a practicality to it, too. Like, “Oh, these clips all look fine. Just put them in there.”
Sometimes there really wasn’t much thought put into it beyond that. We were still editing tape to tape back then, too. That probably had something do with it as well.
Where’d that monologue in the beginning of your part come from?
That was me just messing around. Ed came up with the camera and I felt like I had to do something. There’s some irony there, for sure.
That was basically my gutter snipe at the perception of pro skating... although I was making a little more money with New Deal by then. If you look at who I rode for prior to New Deal, they all had something to do with that kinda hesh-aspect of gutter life, which was the complete opposite of the professional athlete lifestyle. There was nothing aspirational about their branding in the slightest, and that speech was basically me expressing those punk attitudes in a sarcastic way. Because it was never about achieving any type of status or wealth for us.
What’s funny is that I sometimes worry how people perceive it. I hope people can tell that I’m being sarcastic, but you never know. Sure, Ed and I were a little more comfortable at that point than when we were on Circle A, but it’s not like we were hopping in an Escalade. It was still a very cottage industry. There was no penthouse.
Were you able to try new stuff in that part or was it mostly filming stuff you did regularly? I’m thinking of the varial grab stuff in the avenues and that stalefish at China Banks.
Yeah, that was primarily stuff I did regularly, although it spans a decent disciplinary range. Viewing that part now, I am happier with it than I used to be. I was pressed to film, and thus, it is mostly composed of older footage... Though the switch backside 180 at HB High was quite early for switch skating and one of only a few switch tricks in that video. Maybe an NBD?
I remember that China Banks stalefish being a little more difficult. I didn’t really travel much there, either. I basically went straight up and down, but it was noticeably over the “coping”. It may not be the most difficult trick, but it was physically hard to do, with the compression and how fast you had to move in order to get into position... Then you had to get back down.
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| photo: ogden |
What about that long nollie smith?
That spot was pretty short lived. It was new construction, so we fixed it up for the purpose of skating, and then they ended up putting a railing on it… which somebody is probably skating now.
I don’t know if anybody else ever got footage on that thing. I guess they just didn’t get to it in time. One thing you can’t really see is how steep the hill was. Obviously, everyone was already bombing hills back then, but those stairs you had to ollie at the end were really scary. Because that hill was extremely steep and shot out into a busy street. The ground was really rough, too. That wasn’t fun at all.
…Going around that corner wasn’t easy, either. My calves are worse for the wear.
Break down the symbolism in your “Adventure” graphics.
Collaborating with Andy Howell, that was an expression of my observations resulting from becoming a professional skateboarder. Seeing how transactional my interactions were with industry people who made the products that generated funds. I honestly found that experience very distasteful at first. There was such an exploitive aspect to it, especially when you consider how much shorter a pro skateboarder’s career was back then.
About three years… maybe.
Yeah, it probably was roughly that, on average. And at the time, all of this came as a big surprise to me, because a lot of these people are friends and acquaintances. Unfortunately, we’re all operating under the same circumstances and they’re trying to pay their rent, too. This was an element of realism within skateboarding that I’d never thought about, and it was this realization that led to the pimp aspects of that graphic, including the bank and everything. It is an anti-exploitation narrative.
The pimp stuff was also an expression of my immediate surroundings, which was not a very nice neighborhood at the time and had those types of things happening around us. I was chased several times into my apartment from the bus stop at Hayes and Divisadero. Tobin and I were jumped on 3rd and Palou. These were lived experiences that informed the concept. SF felt like that Heavy Metal cartoon at the time.
The fireworks came from a Cow Skates tour I’d been on with Matt Hensley and others where we had this reckless fireworks thing happening. Being from California, I wasn’t used to having fireworks so readily available like they are in other states. I wanted to incorporate that into the graphic as a way to disrupt the scene.
Susie Switchblade was actually Andy’s idea. He came up with the name, although it’s based on my girlfriend at the time, Brooke. It’s really just a caricature of Brooke that took on a life of its own. She was the top graphic for the first board and we also used her for the basis of my second graphic. It just made sense.
My second board just extended that narrative. I’d gotten really into pinball and the word “pimpball” had popped into my mind. That, and I really liked The Who and Tommy. I thought that would be a cool idea to play with. I gave the concept to Andy and we iterated once or twice.
I remember Andy had the idea for Susie putting the quarter in, but I don’t know where the top graphic came from with Susie wearing the goggles. I got the impression that Andy was referencing those Maxell ads from the 80s with the guy getting blown back in the chair. Maybe Susie is getting blown away by the pinball machine in some immersive experience? I’m not really sure. It would be interesting to ask Andy.
But yeah, at its core, it’s all an anti-exploitation message.
What did Brooke think of being Switchblade Susie?
I think she’s always enjoyed it. She didn’t take any of its potential implications seriously. After all, she was there when everything was being discussed. She understood that it really wasn’t about her, per se. She was a device within that creative construct.
What about the Mood Swing board with the anime faces?
Jose Gomez drew that one. That graphic was like my visual acknowledgement of all the changes happening back then… which weren’t necessarily all positive.
I’ve always had an identity focus, always trying to make sense of who I am. And this led me to start thinking about my own moods a lot, because I could mood swing pretty hard back then. The faces gave me an outlet to reveal some of those feelings.
In reviewing for this, you had multiple “Mood Swing” boards, several ads with lines like “Sometimes I Tweak” and “Don’t Lose Your Marbles”, and an entire company loosely conceptualized around “Mad”. Why this stress motif throughout your career?
I honestly had some pretty extreme circumstances growing up with my parents. There is an aspect of this, I think, that allowed me to move comfortably within skating’s subcultures. I was forced to kinda research and assemble my own identity, whereas most have observable examples more immediately available. But all the “Getting Mad” stuff wasn’t serious. That was just me playing around with ideas for the brand, even though the introspection aspect of it was very much a component.
I feel like the “stress” thing for New Deal was more internalized for me as a pro skater, where Mad Circle was more of a release of that energy. Working through all that stuff creatively. Shifting that focus to the riders and engaging in new technologies that allowed me to better express my ideas.
Technology played a big part, because Mad Circle wasn’t borrowing graphic art like many other companies were at the time. We’d get inspired by something and redirect that energy. Obviously, there were a few graphic treatments borrowed from something more directly, but 95% of our deck graphics were all original illustrations done by hand. That was just our process, especially in the beginning of the brand. But as Mad Circle grew and technology evolved, with my pro career taking more of a backseat to running the company, it became more about me sitting in front of the computer with the headphones on. That became more of my outlet. Listening to music as I tried to communicate using these new mediums of expression.
You even made an ad about this with the front shuv at Miley.
Exactly! Once again, focusing on my identity. That was very much who I was and what I did at the time.
So much of being a pro skater is dealing with stress. Not only dealing with the pressure to perform, but keeping up with the latest tricks. There are public and private aspects to this, too. Because you didn’t just go out and film back then. Contests and demos were almost an everyday thing. Having to skate in front of hundreds of people. Like, every time you skated at Embarcadero, you were doing a demo… Because once everybody started going there, half of those people would just sit down and watch.
Even if it wasn’t an actual contest, there’s always an internalized competition. Because not only is it this thing you love, it’s also now your job. That’s why you saw a lot of yelling and screaming in the 90s. Board dipping and focusing. We were all battling those same pressures.
Well, I can’t imagine the crazy tech of 1281 helping with that stress. I’ve always found it fascinating to compare that video with Memory Screen, which was only a couple months prior. The tricks are almost completely different.
That’s how fast things were moving, but to that same point, it’s also probably why some of that stuff didn’t last very long. I actually like my 1281 part. There are a few of those overly progressive elements in there, but there’s also some really creative usage of spots in there, too. That’s my favorite type of street skating.
…Not that I’m completely satisfied with it. There are a couple tricks that I didn’t land cleanly enough or probably should’ve left out. But again, you felt that pressure to be progressing, so there was a tendency to just say “screw it” and put something in there because it demonstrated progression. Again, the paradigm was so focused on “new” that style didn’t seem as important. You just had to make the trick, even if it wasn’t as clean as it could’ve been. It just had to be something new.
To that point, I’ll see posts on Instagram about Chris Fissel from time to time, who was always so hyper-focused on these new, extremely technical tricks. And approaching skateboarding in that way can often slow down your tricks, because you’re so focused on simply landing this crazy thing. That actually happened to a lot of us, but it takes a specific mindset and incredible skill to get where Chris was going so early in the process. I was partly trying to do the same thing. We just found ourselves in that perpetually progressive mode.
Sure, we could’ve gone out and blasted a giant stalefish for 1281, but we just weren’t interested in that at the time. You have to remember the context: People frowned upon that type of skating back then because it was “stale”. Everyone wanted to be “progressive” and looking forward.
What’s the story behind your song in 1281?
Oh, that was just my friend, Chris DeLeon. There’s some heavy irony there. He just made that song one day and I decided to use it. It wasn’t supposed to be taken seriously.
And that weird “Flower Crooner” thumbs up?
That was on the set of this variety tv show when we were all on in Hong Kong, something like The Tonight Show with Johnny Carson. We were doing a demo there, so they had us on the show. That was actually broadcast on the show, because we were gonna be “coming up next” or whatever.
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| switchstance fs 360 nosegrab on set |
Was this the same trip that Andy and Rick came up with the Underworld Element plan?
I don’t think so, but I’m not sure. We would go over to Asia every year.
Were you ever in that Underworld mix?
No, they kinda had their own thing going on. Andy was trying to do something very specific with Underworld Element. He had a clear idea of the type of skating and skater that he was trying to communicate and I didn’t really fit into that concept. Obviously, hip hop had a big influence on many skateboard companies during that period, especially Underworld Element. It definitely had an influence on Mad Circle, too, but it’s not like I was ever going to start a rap group or something.
But no, I was never in that Underworld Element mix. I remember feeling slightly adrift after that, because Andy was such a big inspiration for me, but I quickly moved on. Andy has this infectious energy in both art and skating that was a big influence on me.
Is that when you started thinking about Mad Circle?
Well, I always had Mad Circle in the back of my mind. I didn’t necessarily start putting things into action after that trip, but that did serve as a motivator. Things were already moving that way, anyway. People were starting new companies and most of the primary pros who’d started New Deal had moved on to do their own brands. And it wasn’t long after that when Andy and Steve asked me about possibly starting a new brand as well, like, “If you were to do something, what would it be?”
I already had the whole thing worked out in my head, with the name and basic concept. I remember Andy and Steve being slightly surprised by that. And I had the illustrator I wanted, too. Barry McGee and I had been developing our relationship and creative process with my last few New Deal graphics. We were just gonna take that with us.
Your Slap cover at Miley was around this same time, too. Is that a crooked grind?
Yeah, it’s a crooked grind. I can’t remember exactly how that went down, I think I was just out shooting with Lance one day and we got the photo. I don’t think we were shooting specifically for the cover. I always liked Miley and we just happened to be shooting there. Lance didn’t live too far from me, close to that Sacred Grounds coffee shop on Haight Street. I remember everyone heading down there sometimes before going out skating.
I feel like Lance liked to focus on different skaters than those who were typically featured in magazines back then. Those who weren’t directly in that limelight. So yeah, he put me on the cover.
How was filming Da Deal is Dead with so many ND OGs gone?
Yeah, it was a little different. Guys like Ed and Andy had left to start their own companies and I was already working on Mad Circle behind the scenes. As a result, I held onto a lot of footage for my own project later. If I had released it, I might’ve had a few things in there that would now be on NBD Archive. Specifically, I’m thinking of this switch frontside flip I did on a quarterpipe. I remember because Jordan Richter was there, who was supposed to be the 4th original member of Mad Circle. I want to say that video came out only a couple months before we launched the brand.
I just wanted to film a part that I was happy with and fulfill my obligation, so that’s what I did. Not that I was unhappy with New Deal, I was just more focused on this new project.
Was “Life is… Too Short” another comment on your height?
(laughs) Yeah, a little bit of comical self-deprecation, like my animation in Let The Horns Blow where the weight literally squashes my name down. I’ve always been a big fan of Too Short, too. So yes, it was a comment on my height but also me just liking his music.
Skateboarding does have that whole self-deprecation element in the culture, but I guess the height thing was something distinct for me. I remember Jim Thiebaud talking to me one time, and he goes, “You know, like how you’re always making fun of your height.”
…Even down to “Bushwick” being my nickname at Embarcadero, referencing Bushwick Bill from the Geto Boys. I just kinda ran with it.
Were there any other names for Mad Circle?
No, it was always gonna be Mad Circle. That was it. If there were alternates, those have been lost to history. A handful of creative individuals with a madness in their dedication toward this singular thing. That’s what the name is referring to. Different personalities, but a united front… because they’re your friends, which speaks to my experiences with riding for different companies. At the same time, it also speaks to those pressures we talked about earlier, that the world is basically going mad, but together, we can stave it off. That was the underlying concept.
Was this team unity element a byproduct of your time with the Spikes and EMB?
Yes, for sure. Desiring a sense of closeness with the people I was skating with and creating the brand with. Because, for whatever reason, there has always been a “gang” mentality within skateboarding. It’s always been a thing, and that’s what I wanted in the brands I skated for, too. I think this partially comes from a recognition that you are part of an independent subculture, and therefore, partially “on your own”. Knockaround guys.
It’s interesting because while those two crews couldn’t seem more different on a surface level, I think they both had massive similarities lying underneath.
Oh, they were exactly the same, there was just a different popular culture component to each of them. It’s funny because there were these supposed boundaries between various factions in skateboarding, but I found over the years that they didn’t really exist. The baseline is never very different. While skateboarding is an individualistic pursuit, there can also be a team aspect to it as well. Whether that’s drawing on like-minded inspirations or pushing each other to do tricks. GX1000, for example. There’s a tightly knit identity being communicated there… or the basis for a new Final Destination movie. (laughs)
Something like that is what I wanted for Mad Circle.
What would you cite as influences on the brand?
Oh, there were a lot of influences. Many of them might only be subtle elements reflected in the brand as a whole, not something you would namecheck specifically. It’s the mashup of all these little bits that add up to something greater. Even someone like Robert Crumb, who was quite prominent in San Francisco at one time. Mad Circle didn’t have that same aesthetic, but we did incorporate some of that same feel.
To that point, I would say alt comics, for sure. We also had an interface with stuff like Vaughn Bode and Ren & Stimpy, which were more caustic graphic influences happening at the time. Obviously, a lot of the punk attitude and aesthetic. That flyer culture within punk rock… which leads us back to Bob Schmeltzer. Not only his aesthetic but also his example with what he did at Circle A. Being a professional skater who also started a company, he showed me that I could possibly do something like this, too.
I would also have to say the brands I rode for and the lineage of illustrators I worked with, as well as third parties like Concrete Jungle, Shut and Alien Workshop. John Lucero’s illustrations were a big one, too. People who had a very defined idea of their personal expression like that.
Hip hop definitely had an influence on us, beyond simply using Too Short or Main Source.
Showbiz & AG in the intro.
Exactly. It was always interesting to me how that DITC crew was always so respected, but never the most popular artists or most obvious choice to include in a video. You had to dig a little deeper, which I always liked those types of bands. It required a little more thought.
It was really the sampling being done and infusion culture of hip hop that impacted Mad Circle. This way of pulling from different sources to make something new, which you can probably see more in our videos. A lot of those creative elements in our videos were based on that concept of mixing or sampling, whether it was visual or auditory. Horns actually sampled things in the editing, while Five Flavors had a lot of creative wipes, too.
I know you always get asked about Barry, but how did you establish a full-time working relationship with him?
I literally just came across his stuff on the street one day. Not that I’ve ever been an illustrator or fine artist, but I know what I like when I see it, and I’m able to tell you why I like it. And the second I saw Barry’s stuff, I knew that I would love this person to visually communicate some of my ideas.
I ended up asking Mr. Element, who was another graffiti artist in town, if he knew “Twist” and if he could get me in touch with him. He connected us and we did my “Little Pigs” deck for New Deal as a one-off, just to see how it went. And in that one graphic, you can see where Mad Circle would ultimately end up going, both artistically and conceptually. All these different elements from my personal life translated through Barry’s hand into a detailed illustration. All done with colored pencils and some watercolors. Tape and Gesso. A very limited number of things that are so deep from a visual standpoint. Our relationship just developed from there.
We made Barry a full-time employee for Mad Circle while he was still in school, which meant he got a stipend on a technical salary basis and we could give him health insurance. That actually made me feel a little better about things, because the going rate for contractors at most companies for a one-off graphic was only around $400. It wasn’t very much. And when you’re going as hard as Barry was on the details, I felt he deserved more.
I was lucky in that Barry and I didn’t have to do many iterations after discussing my initial concepts because he was always so amazing. I don’t think there was ever a time where I had to give him detailed feedback for a second round. It wouldn’t have been practical anyway, but it was never a problem.
To me, Barry was part of the team. That’s why there’s a shot of him in the opening of Let The Horns Blow. We skated together and worked together, just like everybody else on Mad Circle.
You’ve also said that McGee’s involvement has gotten “a little overblown” over the years. How so?
I just think people tend to associate Mad Circle too explicitly with his artwork, to my disliking. There were other artists in the mix, too, like Gorm, Jesse McMillan, the Twins and many others.
Barry has become so prominent in his later career, I think people assign a bigger role for him in Mad Circle than it really was. The core aspect of Mad Circle that people respond to is the concept, and the style of illustration he was doing at the time really brought that to life. I do think we were able to capture something in that original period of Mad Circle with Barry that was really honest. And I think Mad Circle remained consistent with the ideas we were communicating throughout its entire lifecycle.
Who came up with the Mad Ball logos?
Well, the forward-facing version came from the Mad King illustration in our first ad. I just took the right eye of that drawing, mirrored it for the left, and put a circle around it. And then I asked Gorm to do a side profile version shortly thereafter.
The Mad Ball is part of a creative lineage going all the way back to brands like Powell and their use of the skeleton. The Spitfire guy or Shut and the druids. I was trying to use the Mad Ball in the same kinda way.
In my opinion, I think the side profile one is slightly better than the forward-facing one. I don’t think the forward one has as much character because it wasn’t really drawn, it was put together as a composite. But there are cases where the forward one works better, like on Bobby Puleo’s first board or the more pro sports-oriented graphic treatments. Not that it was ever supposed to be a “jock” thing, it had more to do with the skaters being professional. Like, I wanted my riders to feel like they played for the Dallas Mavericks, you know? Borrowing from the elite orientation of mainstream professional sports.
There was definitely an eye motif, too, even down to running photos of each rider’s eyes.
These concepts are all kinda in the same pool. We used the eyes as an expression of each individual, as it is the window to the soul, but presenting them all together to give a sense of unity. It’s not like we were the first to market our riders’ personalities, but I do think Mad Circle took it to a different place. Presenting distinct details about each of our riders that were all very thoughtful and specific… and what’s more specific to a person than their eyes?
Starting with the first ad, we also used portraits and caricatures as a way to not only give you an impression of the person, but to also exaggerate certain aspects we wanted to call attention to. Mike Cao’s oversized earrings, for example. And this continued through the portraits in Let The Horns Blow, the illustrations of the “Shadow Series” and the “Stained Glass Series”… which were also something created by hand. I literally went down the street to a stained glass maker and had those things made. Actual pieces of stained glass made for the series.
Reminds me of that Christmas ornament ad.
Just a further riff on the theme, while still communicating what was going on with us as a brand. There was obviously a seasonal sales aspect to that one as well.
What was the most challenging aspect of running Mad Circle for you? And did you know going into it that company ownership would take away from your skate career?
Yeah, there was an acknowledgement up front that owning a company would probably take away from my skating and I’d probably have to retire earlier. I was okay with that.
There were a lot of challenging aspects to running Mad Circle, like managing expectations or balancing creative input from a wide range of sources. The distance between our creative end in San Francisco and the manufacturing down in Costa Mesa could be challenging, too. We did have creative autonomy for most of the seven years or so the company was around…. and to that point, I think we did enjoy a little more independence than the other brands at Giant who were all right there. But there was always that fine line between needing access to Giant’s resources while also maintaining that aspect of independence.
Mad Circle always did well from a business standpoint, but I probably focused a little too much on what I could do for the teamriders and the brand as a discreet entity. I was probably putting too much revenue back into the brand for my own good. So much of it went back into the company, unfortunately, that I probably burnt myself out quicker because I didn’t meet my own related needs. There was a huge delta between what I was paying myself to live versus how much effort I was putting into things. I was focusing more on what could be achieved with the brand. Not taking a raise so I could put together a tour, embellish a product or make custom stuff for the riders. We did that all the time, like custom engraved knives or team-exclusive backpacks. Lots of little details to make the riders feel like they were really part of something. Those weren’t huge expenses and they paid the right kind of dividends, but coupled with the bigger picture effort, there was something of a “1000 Cuts” scenario in terms of my ability to overwork.
I think the most challenging thing about running a company is probably when you genuinely care about everything. You have to balance things in a way where you’re making everybody happy while continuing to express the ideas you want to put out there.
Jordan Richter came up earlier as an MC OG after his Family project fell through. I know you had his portrait made for that first ad but it never ran. How did he end up on New Deal under the same distribution?
I don’t think he went straight from Mad Circle to New Deal. It wasn’t anything that drastic. There might’ve been a little interim at another brand or maybe just a small hiatus, but I honestly don’t know how he ended up on New Deal. Obviously, everybody knows everybody and he did have that interface already through Mad Circle.
I still talk to Jordan every now and then, and we did end up talking about what happened. This is years later, obviously, but I had to apologize over a miscommunication that happened back then. There were things I didn’t quite understand about him at the time. That was a mistake I made and we understand each other better now.
I do consider him an integral part in the beginning of Mad Circle and wish he would’ve stuck around longer. Because Jordan is an ATV, even though I always thought of him as more of a vert skater, and that was me trying to have a complete skateboard team. I always wanted to have skaters in all disciplines. While I was predominantly a street skater, I still wanted to support vert in skateboarding.
Wasn’t Scott Johnston also supposed to be an original member of Mad Circle but got cold feet?
Did somebody say that?
That's what Scott told me.
Oh wow… okay. Well, from my perspective, it didn’t read that way, but I understand. Because Keith Cochrane and Greg Carroll were both like me. We took all this stuff very seriously, so when someone left the team, we took it personally. Like, when Moses left Mad Circle, I took that very personally. I was hurt by that because, again, we were supposed to be this united front. Moses and I always got along well, so it came as a surprise. Luckily, Scott was there trying to talk me down. This is another case where those involved understand each other better now, after the fact. Anyone trying to keep a team together goes through this.
I definitely wanted Scott for the team, and he did end up coming on right after everything started, but I didn’t realize it was a matter of cold feet in the beginning. I just thought there was a delay that needed to happen before he could leave. That the timing didn’t quite match up with him getting on before the first ad, at least publicly. And Scott’s such a nice person, I could see him feeling bad about leaving a longtime sponsor.
I do know that both Keith and Greg were very unhappy when he left. Sorry, fellas.
Yeah, I was wondering if there were any repercussions with him leaving for the “Just a Goon” guy’s company?
No, it all blew over pretty quickly. I do remember it being known that Scott was fit to be caught. That he was looking around for another board sponsor, which is how I rationalized it to myself. Because he was going to leave Think, if I didn’t take this opportunity, he was just gonna go somewhere else.
Anybody of interest almost ride for Mad Circle over the years?
Not really. In the beginning, Steven Cales was supposed to ride for us. He doesn’t remember this, but he is listed in our first catalog as an am. I guess our wires got crossed and he ended up riding for Mark, but there was a period where I thought he was on the team. This kind of thing is more common than people expect.
Let the Horns Blow is not only an amazing video, but also quite ambitious for a company that was barely a year old. First off, where’d the title come from?
Well, “ambitious” is a great way of putting it.
The title just popped in my head one day as an effective way to announce our first video. An introduction to Mad Circle from a video standpoint. It’s an interesting phrase that also spoke to the musical influence present in the video. Also, not that we ever thought of ourselves as royalty, but the crown was a concept we established in our first ad, in a few of our logos, and on the Mad King. I actually took it from the Humpty Dumpty on my New Deal “Little Pigs” deck.
What about that animated intro? So good.
That intro is a good example of how ’90s hip hop helped influence my creative process, in general, and the editing, specifically. Because the horns were from “Catching Wreck” by Show and AG, with some samples from other groups in there as well. It’s a kind of structured collage, which is what sampled songs are in my view.
WC and Maad Circle.
Definitely.
Again, the visuals were designed to express certain personality traits of the riders through animation. I can’t think of too many other companies using animation in their videos at that time, except for Powell.
Of course, you look at it now and it’s quite rudimentary, but that was me wanting to bring that kind of creativity into the space, and it brings a raw authenticity. It was done with VideoFX, which might be the first digital video editing suite. Paul Schmitt is actually the one who brought that to the table. I don’t think we would’ve been able to do it otherwise.
I really can’t overstate the influence of those Powell videos here. Stacy and those guys really transformed skateboarding videos into truly cinematic experiences, and I wanted to bring that same sort of thing to my work.
I will say there was an aspirational component here with all the creative energy we had going at this time. Now, we’re turning all that momentum towards making a film. Not just some skateboarders messing around with a camcorder, this was a going to be a real film. A complete work of art. Because I do think that playing around with different formats in skate videos had fallen off since Stacy left Powell and they started scaling back.
How long did you guys film and how long did editing take?
That was probably around a year or so.
Were you really up for three days finishing the video?
(laughs) It’s hard when you really care about something, man. Because I was learning this new technology and I cared so much about every edit. Everything had such meaning to it. I'd start building a part out with the music, which would then give way to more ideas…
The one place where I think it loses some flow is in Edward Devera’s part. I feel like I probably went too far with the photos there. It’s a little too dedicated to the music and not so much what the part needed. But other than that, I think it really flows from segment to segment with a concept throughout that actually pays off at the end.
Was I up for three days editing at the end? Yes, because I’d never done animation, either. I’m asking someone to draw things and then I was processing it.
Was that Barry?
No, those were Jose Gomez’s drawings. Barry’s stuff was too detailed and wouldn’t have translated in that resolution for VHS. That, and I worked more directly with Jose. We actually finished it together in his apartment down in San Diego. I remember sending it off to Paul for reproduction from down there, and because of that, I couldn’t even go to the premiere at FTC in San Francisco. That’s how close we were to deadline… and that’s why I was up for three days. (laughs)
What were your thoughts on music supervision for both Horns and Flavors?
These are artists who inspire me with songs that showcase an element of a rider’s personality. That’s why I chose the songs I did. Ed’s personality was more quirky, which fits Herb Alpert. It’s a very cinematic song that was fun to play around with in editing.
Scott has such a timeless style, and I think “Peg” complimented that. Choosing Gangstarr for his part in Five Flavors spoke to that as well. I love that Guru said “MC” in the lyrics, and with his part being the ender, it matched perfectly. His part literally ends with that sample saying, “See ya later.” I never meant to be that intentional as it related to eventually dissolving MC, but the timing of the edit just worked out that way and I had to go with it.
I feel like these songs did a great job in coloring the video. Like, “Live at the Barbecue” fit perfectly with the amateur section because each MC got a verse. You could fit it to each rider, essentially giving them their own part within that song. It also had an EMB feel to it, which obviously went along with a lot of the footage being shot down there. After all, I was trying to capture how these guys were living, and this is what they were listening to back then.
For me, I did know most of these artists because I try not to restrict myself. With someone like Randy Newman, I was trying to do things in a skateboard video that might not be expected. Although I used it for a surface-level joke, there is some depth to that song. There’s obviously an allegory there. That, and it’s just a really good song. These are all great songs. Luckily, we didn’t have to worry about rights back then. Even if they sued us, it’s not like they were really gonna get anything. (laughs)
Something that often gets misconstrued about Mad Circle is people thinking it has to do with “street cred”, because Barry was involved and they see the name is this tough-sounding thing. It was never that. These are just my honest expressions. This came up when we did that Five Flavors commentary for Jenkem. We were talking about the music and a few of the guys took that opportunity to say they weren’t 100% satisfied with my song choices. I’m comfortable with that, as there are specific reasons for why I chose every song. But also, I knew if I let the guys choose their own songs, it might’ve been all Mobb Deep.
(laughs)
Obviously, everybody has a critical role in this, but there’s also a funnel that ideas need to go through. Everything needs to work together, both as a cohesive video and within the parameters of the brand.
So. how did you land on Cake for Pontus?
Because that dude is intense, man! I listen to that song and all I can think about is Pontus being mad. He’s like my two-year-old son if I don’t take him outside, he starts bouncing off the walls. There’s just so much energy and angst there. It’s not like we were listening to Cake all the time. I just happened to hear that song and thought it sounded like Pontus, like, “ARRRR, TAKE ME SOMEWHERE!”
This was a 15-year-old kid going crazy in San Francisco. Super focused and serious. Yeah, I know people think Cake is corny, but that’s not the point. At the time, that song felt very appropriate for my experience with him. It also had sections that were editable and had a theme. With all those factors, I’m happy with it. And I don’t think he really cares. I think he might identify with it now, to a degree. He knows he’s an intense person.
How did he get on your radar anyway?
That was through Gorm. He was like, “There’s this kid from Sweden that rips.”
Back to Horns, how was filming your part as the owner?
That part was hard because by that point, I was doing both. I’m running the company while also trying to be a pro skater for it. And it’s not like we released the video right as we launched the company. I’d been running Mad Circle for a while, and most of my energy was going into the ownership side of it. Because I’m not like Jamie Thomas or something. I’m not just gonna go out and grind a 20-stair handrail, thereby extending my pro career. Those were risks I was adverse to for a lot of obvious reasons. (laughs)
I was already in a different mode by then, but I still wanted to skate. I just don’t think I was skating enough.
It's a great part. How’d that kickflip into the wall at Black Rock go down?
Mike Carroll actually gave me a hard time about my little toe drag on that one and I’ll never forgive him for it… but he’s right! I should’ve done it again! (laughs)
That’s a weird one because it just kinda popped in my head, like, “You know what? I’m gonna kickflip into that thing. I think I can do it.”
I was rolling around with Blabac and a few other people that day, when I just suddenly felt like it was doable. And that’s the type of skating I like most: Creatively interpreting natural obstacles in the street.
I probably shouldn’t have slow-mo’d it, though. I think Mike gave me a hard time for that, too. I might’ve been able to obscure the toe drag a little more at regular speed. This is an aspect of curating your own skating that I didn’t grow up with so much.
That’s a fair point.
Yeah, but I still like the end result. I don’t care so much that it’s in slow motion because I felt like that kind of skating wasn’t really happening much at that time. And again, I feel like that comes more from my hesh background. I’ve always liked really tight, harsh transitions.
I still have that footage, too. I guess I’ll have to do something with it now at regular speed... Yeah, screw you, Mike! (laughs)
I love that he said something.
Oh, those dudes were relentless. The really gifted ones? If it wasn’t perfect, you didn’t get full credit. And in this instance, I think he was a little mad that I got to it before he did, jokingly. That wasn’t the full motivation, I’m sure, but I do think that was part of it.
But you nollie flipped and switch flipped the Big 3 in there, too!
Yeah, that kinda stuff was rare for me. I always tended to go bigger on transition, where I could really stretch it. The accomplishment of doing that was fun. Getting listed on stuff, so-and-so did such-and-such, but I didn’t really enjoy skating like that. Like, I never enjoyed skating the Seven. It just wasn’t fun for me.
Those clips aren’t bad, especially when you consider that we were all skating little wheels on bricks. What was that all about? So dumb. And the thing with the Big 3 is that you had to go across it laterally at an angle, which always felt strange.
In Blabac’s interview, he talked about the “eat-sleep-breathe” work ethic of Mad Circle in your shared apartment.
Yeah, Greg Carroll once called me “the hardest working man in skateboarding”. I’m pretty sure he just thought I was crazy.
Take us through a typical day during this time.
I’d probably get up early. I was still smoking cigarettes at the time, so I would just sit in front of the computer and smoke while everyone else was still sleeping. Do some work on creative. Blabac would wake up shortly after that and initiate his day in the specific way he was accustomed to. Rising to sunshine, you could say.
Depending on what projects we were working on, the two of us would start planning out our day. It wasn’t always the same, but it would often involve going out for breakfast, like Eddie’s Café or The Bean Bag Café. Then we’d hit a couple spots. Meet up with a couple teamriders and maybe try to film something or shoot some photos for an ad. There was always something creative going on. I mean, there were times when we would be shooting photos of spots to send to Bobby. Laying some groundwork with stuff that we could picture him skating on his next trip out.
As the day goes on, some of the other guys would be getting out of school, like Karl Watson. Eventually, you have your whole crew going and everyone ends up down at Embarcadero.
After all that, there was probably still some work that needed to be done, so it was back to the apartment. There’s always a deadline and things have to be ready for production. But yeah, once all that was done for the night, we’d probably just go to dinner and watch a movie or something.
What are your favorite Mad Circle graphics and ads?
Well, I thought all of Cao’s boards were dope. Like his Rookie Card board that we borrowed from Kayo trading cards? I thought came out really good. Cao’s cityscape deck is a good example of an effective treatment using the forward-facing Mad Ball; rising in the background. Fissel’s Ichthys with the duotone split background is one of my absolute favorite graphic art decks. Anything Barry drew, of course. Scott had a board called “Palette Man”, which was basically a character with a palette for a head and brushes for arms and legs. It was just a cool illustration that I believe the Twins did. One of my favorite boards that isn’t a Barry board is my fourth Mood Swing board, which almost had a Tim Burton aesthetic to it. Obviously, Scott’s Top Hat deck. And Edward’s Drivers Ed deck, which literally came from Ed getting so many tickets and fender-benders.
Not necessarily because of the subject matter, but I really liked my board with the Italian flag background and the character carrying the violin case. Gorm’s illustration really captured the concept and the way Chicken screenprinted it, every single one of them came out really bright.
Obviously, I love the first ad. Fissel’s first ad is a favorite, with the stripe going down the side and the two cows. Cao’s ads are some of my favorites, too. The Big Brother one with Scott in the frame. And some of the verbiage I had in there, especially if I wasn’t completely happy with how the ad came out visually. I’d always try to put something thoughtful in there to help it out.
I was wondering if you wrote the copy.
Yeah, I wrote all the copy. There was some input from other people here and there, but I always liked doing that. Like those “My Favorite Things” ads we had? Where I said my favorite thing about being a pro skater was all the free peanuts? I thought that was pretty clever. Everybody had one of those ads, but the “thoughts” all came from me. I’d try to draw on something that happened where I gained an insight into that rider’s thinking.
Did you coin “The Hard Way” in that SJ ad? I think that’s the first time I ever heard it used in a skate context.
Oh, I definitely came up with that for the ad, but I don’t know if I was the first to use it with regard to skating… I’m sure somebody else had beforehand. I can’t imagine it started there.
Talk about Karl’s welcome ad with the switch back tail. You didn’t photoshop that MC sticker in there, right?
Oh, “Karl Watson Has Come Full Circle”. No, that’s not photoshopped. It’s just a great photo. It’s basically perfect. We had a few ads like that, with a big photo, minimal text, and a catchphrase meant to convey insight to the skater featured.
To that point, was there ever any thought of using Blabac’s SJ parking meter photo for an ad?
Probably, but I’m not sure what the concept would’ve been. That, and I don’t think the timing lined up. I don’t think that photo was available when it would’ve been convenient for an ad. And sometimes it’s better to just let a photo go than hold onto it, for the rider’s sake as well. Because then you’ll get, “That shit’s old, man. I don’t want to use that.”
There’s always a balance between paying for an ad and getting editorial coverage, too. If Scott’s getting a photo ran in a mag, it’s basically an ad we don’t have to pay for.
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| photo: blabac |
But why’d you make Karl go back to being amateur for Mad Circle?
I did? I thought I gave him a board immediately!?!
You turned him pro again later, but he’d already gone pro for Clean and Profile.
Oh, that was probably just a timing thing, because I wanted to do things according to a manageable timeline. After all, him coming to Mad Circle was a big deal. He’s an SF guy and I’ve known him since he was a little kid. I made him amateur again because I wanted to build up to giving him a board. It obviously didn’t have anything to do with his skating. I just wanted to work toward that culmination of giving him a board.
And you picked up Bobby after Penal Code?
I think so. Something had happened between him and Stereo. I want to say Bobby got on through Scott. Scott was really pushing for that… and then Bobby’s the one who was pushing for Rob, if I remember correctly.
Penal Code had just come out and Bobby had that great part in there. He did move back east not too long after that, but I actually wanted more of that for the team. It’s always good to have some variety and I liked having that East Coast/New York vibe represented on Mad Circle. We were very lucky to get Bobby on the team because I know there were several other brands wanting to snatch him up, and for good reason. He was such a great fit for Mad Circle.
That Five Flavors-era team was really good, you know? It was basically the perfect team in my eyes.
Yeah, that was the original title.
I fucking love that title.
(laughs) I know! I think this was when the environment within the company started to shift. I can’t remember exactly, but something happened that actually disrupted this particular creative direction. I felt like I had to change to what would eventually become Five Flavors because that seemed more likely to happen. There was more of a concrete direction for me to actually finish it.
Sure, I’d already made that “Film Threats” ad promoting The Circle Sings The Blues. I’m just gonna have to change it and maybe come back to that concept later. Not that I have regrets, but it’s a bummer I never got to execute that concept. There was just a lot of things happening at the time and I wasn’t able to fully flush out my Sings The Blues concept as it applied to making a video. Time was running out and I wasn’t comfortable enough with it yet.
Five Flavors was my concept as well, and I do like how that turned out in the end. I knew at the time that there were enough ideas, like the number treatment, to still make it feel unique.
How would Sings The Blues have been different?
It would’ve been a little moodier than Five Flavors. It was meant to be lineal with Let The Horns Blow, really focusing on the music to tell the story with a more cinematic type of feel. Going in almost a Gwar-type of direction. (laughs)
(laughs) Sounds incredible.
I just couldn’t get it to where it needed to be. There’s a resources component to it and I was running thin in that department. I was getting pressured to get a video done and I wasn’t sure about being able to get it done in the way I wanted to do it. Probably not in the timeframe that was allotted.
…but yeah, it would’ve been great.
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| welsh switch crooks by blabac |
With all of these “shifts” going on, was Five Flavors as enjoyable for you as Horns?
I had more overall autonomy with Let The Horns Blow, but I still enjoyed making Five Flavors, for sure. I think the Five Flavors concept was a little more overt, but I still like how it came out. It’s another complete work from beginning to end. Admittedly, I did get some criticism for it being a bit more formulaic, but I’m okay with that. There were still a lot of thoughtful elements in there, especially in Bobby and Rob’s parts. A lot of creative transitions to augment the flow. Like that wipe when Rob’s on the swings? That’s still one of my favorites. Part of any successful creative endeavor involves subtle elements like this. They allow the viewer to let the experience take over. It’s disarming, in a sense.
Jesse and I did some animations, too. I think it all came out really well and represents an excellent snapshot of the period, brand and team.
I do think people were expecting Five Flavors to break some rules in the same way Let The Horns did, like choosing another Herb Alpert type of thing. But the people making these criticisms, it’s always guys like Big Brother. These guys are reviewing it like it’s the latest Quentin Tarantino film. I just wanted it to be a well-executed, enjoyable experience and I think it was.
One of the biggest difficulties I faced was having to compete with other companies for footage. Riders were starting to get into their own logistics, with regard to sponsors and footage. They wanted to spread things out in a way that worked best for them, because often, they weren’t just working on my video. There were times when I felt like one clip could’ve made such a difference in their part, but they wanted it to go to another project instead. That was frustrating.
This is one aspect in which being a pro skater myself and having lived that struggle personally was something of a disadvantage. I couldn’t bring myself to ask them for everything. I think they knew the video would be good regardless… though, we did have kind of a handicap with all the creativity and care that went into it. And there was pressure coming from their secondary and tertiary sponsors or independent video producers.
You’ve said your “Mess” footage is some of your favorite stuff. How so?
Because it shows the tricks I personally like to do. That little part is more how I skate in real life, whenever I’m just going out to skate casually and not for the camera or a contest run.
So, what happened at this point? It seemed like Five Flavors came out and not too long afterwards, Mad Circle was done.
Well, there was more than a year between Five Flavors and the end of Mad Circle. And business-wise, Mad Circle was fine. We were always profitable. Things had gotten tighter, but it was tighter for everyone. Our problems were more under the hood. My relationship with the partners was starting to change because the business was starting to change. People were starting to second guess things, even though they’d never really been involved with the creative before. There was starting to be some top-down pressure to go in certain directions that I didn’t necessarily want to go, like some of the more cartoony graphics that came towards the end. And because of things like that, I had to make the calculation of “Is this really worth it?”
It’s all water under the bridge now, but there was a lot of talk about relocation. I would’ve had to move to Costa Mesa, which not only did I not want to do, I also felt like the brand would’ve suffered because of it. Because San Francisco had always played such a large part in the company. I know a lot of brands that moved and were never the same afterwards. You can tell. There are shifts, either in the product or creative output, and people start to drift away. Then what do you have?
I’ve always felt good about my decision. Obviously, I wasn’t happy for the riders, in that they all had to go find other board sponsors, but I do think quitting did a service for the brand.
Oh, you definitely made the right decision.
I just knew that if I wasn’t able to keep doing it the way I wanted to do it, I should walk away. Running a brand is hard enough as it is.
You had to be getting a little burnt out by this time, too.
Oh yeah. All those hours of work with my compensation being not at all commensurate. I did get a lot of creative satisfaction out of Mad Circle, but it was still hard. It’s hard managing all those riders and illustrators. Keeping the whole program together while maintaining that same level of quality.
All this basically led to my decision to go try something different. Not that I’d always wanted to go off in this completely other direction in life… getting into advertising and then doing all this tech stuff. That’s just where I ended up heading in a completely organic way.
This was before the time when other companies would buy your brand, but I’m not sure how comfortable I would’ve been with that anyway.
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| photo: blabac |
I was wondering if you thought about taking it elsewhere.
Not really, largely due to Mad Circle ending so abruptly. Almost everything that had gone on was behind the scenes. And at the time, I had such bad feelings over what was happening that I just wanted to move on. I was still skating and talking to people I knew, but I basically just went away. There was very little outside communication, and I didn’t really explore any of the other distributions. I was done.
It's funny because I’ve found a few companies recently who were blatantly pirating Mad Circle stuff. Two different ones that I had to look into, because it’s my work, you know? And it’s just so weird… like those “Bobby Puleo” boards that he didn’t have anything to do with? What is that? Well, the same thing was happening to me! I found an ad for a Justin Girard Adidas shoe! It was so crazy. It even went into this whole thing about me being “an original Dogtown boy”.
As was probably the case with those Bobby boards, I feel like this was just some disconnect with people in a foreign county who vaguely had an idea of what something is and wanted to glob onto it for a quick buck. Because they don’t know, they’re just gonna throw it out there and see what they can get. If they keep their production costs down, they can probably turn a profit. Obviously, this is the worst-case scenario of what could happen, but it did motivate me to get the trademarks for Mad Circle in order.
Mad Circle continues to resonate with those in the know after all these years. Would you ever consider bringing it back? There’s clearly still an appetite for it.
I’ve definitely thought about it. I still have most of the stuff.
A couple years ago, I was approached by some people in the art world who wanted a skateboard brand. They were cordial, savvy, knowledgeable and had expressed interest in relaunching Mad Circle, specifically. I did do some work with them to determine if it could work, but I eventually decided against it. Again, it began to feel like that situation where external influence might alter the brand and that the original material could be diluted in the process. I appreciated the interest, and the party in question had a good understanding of what made Mad Circle special, but I didn’t want to play that role again.
I won’t rule it out or anything, I just want it to be done the right way. There is something very specific that we would be trying to impart by bringing Mad Circle back and it would have to be done right.
I will say that I’m working on a Mad Circle project right now… it’s almost done, actually. I’ve been working on it for a while. I just need to get it done, and again, done right the way. But yes, that will be coming soon.
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| photo: ogden |
I know you said earlier that you don’t really have any regrets, but what would you say has been your proudest moment in skateboarding?
I can’t really say one definitive moment, but in terms of personal accomplishments, what does stand out is having put in enough work to where I would be offered my own brand. It’s not really a singular accomplishment as much a culmination of all the work beforehand. Years of skateboarding and all of the energy I put into it… along with everything I was able to accomplish along the way. Turning pro, qualifying first in my first pro contest, and just being able to navigate the industry successfully.
Aside from that, I’d say what I was able to impart to the other people involved in Mad Circle. The impacts they‘ve mentioned Mad Circle having on their personal growth, their careers creatively, and their reverence for the experience. I’ll always remember hearing the excitement of the Horns premiere over the phone from SD, feeling like we really nailed it. As we’ve discussed, it wasn’t always easy. To deal with those ups and downs during my pro career and come out with an offer to run my own company? It takes me back me back to those early days with Bob and Circle A at the very beginning of all this. That it wasn’t for nothing. It really means a lot.
Big thanks to Justin and Pontus for taking the time.
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