chops sits down with jerry for some conversation.
So how’s your Made 2 part coming along, Jerry?
I feel like it’s going pretty good. I’m skating a lot. It actually feels really good just to have a project to work on again. After you’ve been skating a while, it definitely helps to have a goal in order to push yourself and get into a routine.
When you’re younger, you’re just naturally going out and skating. You don’t even need a project. You’re always building up footage anyway so when a video does finally come along, it’s just like, “Here you go.”
This one’s a little different for me as I’m working towards a goal... so many goals inside my mind that drive me crazy. Stay Gold was like that, too, but I was a mess. I need more rest these days. It’s hard but at the same time, it’s really rewarding because tricks just seem harder to do now. It’s much more rewarding to actually get them on film.
Our deadline is at the end of the year but those are always pretty tentative.
How does Emerica go about choosing which riders are going to be featured? Like, did you know while they were out making Made 1 that you were up next?
It’s funny because no, we didn’t know. The only reason Made 1 even happened was because Westgate and Leo kept on filming after Stay Gold finished. They just kept on building more footage to where Miner basically decided to make another video with those guys. It’s not like we all got together and decided to make this series of videos. But when Made came out with the name Volume 1, it became pretty obvious how this was going to play out.
“Oh… I guess we’re all gonna have to be in Volume 2 then, right?” (laughs)
I have to imagine as a close friend that Spanky’s resurgence has been amazing to see firsthand. When did you start to realize how serious Kevin was taking all of this?
Spanky is my best friend. I skate with him everyday so I’ve watched this whole thing go down; from being at the top, falling to the bottom and back again. I’ve been there throughout this entire thing and it really has been inspiring. When he lost his sponsors, especially Baker, that was definitely a difficult thing to have happen but he was never bitter about any of it. He was always thankful to skateboarding for what it had given him. He understood that what had happened was his fault and that he needed to change. A lot of people don’t take that news so gracefully.
Not at all.
Yeah, but he knew that he had to change his life and he did so. He decided to get serious about skating again because he still loves it and that’s what he wants to do. He started trying to figure out what to do, looking at other possible sponsors. He’d ask me if he should ride for this or that company and I really didn’t know what to say. He was discovering skateboarding again and that was rad to see but now money was also an issue.
That’s when things get real.
I don’t think he really wanted to ride for anyone but Baker. I was trying to get him to call other people but I’m glad he didn’t listen to me.
But it’s crazy how his skating just came back immediately. At the time, I was starting to go out with Andrew and Herman for the video and Spanky was coming along with us. He was ripping! Miner was always happy to film him and after about 6 months or so, he just had all this stuff. It just became clear to everyone that Spanky was back.
It became this thing where Andrew recognized what Spanky was doing and if he kept on this path, he’d get his board back. Andrew talked to me about it a little and he wanted to keep it between us… which was really hard for me not to tell Spanky. He was already skating so well but I just had to let it happen. I do think Andrew kinda hinted to him at one point a little later and that’s when he really started turning it on. As soon as he realized there was a possibility of getting his board back on Baker, it was on for him. That's a pretty rare thing to have happen.
I’m super proud of him. He had taken such a hit to his ego but stayed humble and did the work to get it all back. He never complained, ever. And for him to work so hard and come back is also like a gift for us because we all really love him and want him around. Having him part of this project makes me very thankful.
Super good, man. So are there going to be any concepts again for your part this time? Another all switch part perhaps? Or will it just be full-on Jerry for Made 2?
I guess Made 2 is going to be full-on me? My part is gonna be pretty different because I can’t really skate things like drops, handrails and gaps the way I used to. That type of stuff is going to be pretty minimal. I think there’s going to be a lot more lines this time… a lot of schoolyards, banks and ditches. I’ve had to adjust the way I skate. I’ve started to look at my environment and my targets differently.
The thing is that if I still skated the way I used to, I’d probably only have 5 tricks in the video. If I go out and skate a double-set today, I’ll basically be in pain for the next week. Then I’ll have to work my way back up from there only to get wrecked again. It’s just ridiculous.
Andrew echoed the same thing in his interview as well.
It’s kinda cool to evolve, actually. You don’t want to be doing the same thing forever. Having to use your mind and imagination again is awesome. The handicap is actually healthy because it helps you grow as a skater. Personally, I feel like learning how to skate other stuff than what I’m used to has been really rewarding for me.
So much has always been made of your slams over the years. Has that started to weigh on your mind as you’ve gotten older? Why do you think people like watching you hurt yourself, Jerry?
I feel like it’s always been a bit sensationalized. It’s this thing where I’ll go for something and if I slam, it just looks so terrible and sometimes it is. Some people love seeing that stuff and some people don’t but I understand that it mixes it up. It’s an exciting thing to put in a video.
With my Stay Gold part, I didn’t really have that much footage. Miner made the choice to edit it the way he did, which I feel really sensationalized how much work I put into it. I think some people do like that aspect of it, that it shows how hard skateboarding can be. That’s what people tell me anyway… that we all get back up and try again.
I think it shows both a work ethic as well as humanizes you as a pro. I realize that nobody is really enjoys watching their own parts but is that Stay Gold one a hard one for you to watch, in particular?
I just don’t really like watching it because it’s me. Pro skaters are the most insecure people in the world. They constantly need reassurance. Is this cool? Did I do that okay? Should I do this again? Filmers and photographers seriously have to deal with so much insecure skater crap.
“Yes, it’s fine. You’re good.”
But I will say that if you’re known for something like slamming, it does kinda make you feel like you suck. If I slam at a skatepark or some place where there are a lot of people around, it’s almost like they’ve been expecting it or something. It’s like everyone thinks I’m always falling. That can be pretty embarrassing and kind of a bummer. It kinda fucks with your concentration, too, but it’s okay. That’s just the way I skate. I can’t really change that, even if I wanted to… although it would definitely hurt less.
How did that switch concept come about anyways? I know you were having trouble with injuries, is that a theme you’d been thinking about for a long time?
Honestly, no, that is not something that I’ve ever wanted to do. It wasn’t planned at all.
That part was a hard one for me because I actually had 2 knee surgeries during the filming of that video in addition to getting on the team right in the middle of filming. Most people had a couple more years to film as I was late to the party, on top of those injuries.
So… are you regular-footed or goofy-footed?
Ok, so imagine your right knee had a really bad injury that you’re recovering from. Whenever you ollie, you pop off your right foot. That’s the foot that will propel you. Your other foot will lift you but it’s that right foot that snaps off the ground and pushes you into the air. Well, my back knee was so hurt at the time that I couldn’t skate normal… but I could skate switch. So, it was completely the injury.
I did film a few things that were regular but they just weren’t all that good. I think Miner made a good choice with the switch theme because it made the whole thing much stronger. He took maybe 16 tricks and turned it into an entire video part. He made a half-assed video part into a drama with all of this struggle in the beginning before it turns around in the middle. He gave it a story to make up for my injuries.
So the “switch part” wasn’t even your idea? It wasn’t something you were actively working towards during filming?
No, filming was all done. It was his decision all on his own and I really owe him for that. Without his choices, that part would’ve been some 45-second thing that just went by. That was all Jon Miner.
You mentioned earlier how much planning your filming process now requires. Do you find yourself doing more homework and even making lists these days? Because I know for a while after Bag of Suck, you definitely seemed a little over it.
I’ve kinda gone back to being a kid again. I’m making trick lists now. I’m watching videos constantly again. It’s been really fun.
You’re right in that there was a time where I wasn’t really interested in skating that much. I was pretty burnt on it… not that it’s a bad thing to feel that way. Highs and lows are natural and I think it’s necessary to walk away from something you’re passionate about for a little bit when it becomes a bit too intense.
It just feels good to be working on a project. I’ve started to find myself researching spots, going to check them out and fixing them if need be. I’m making lists and practicing. Even going out skating with the crew on days when I’m not actually filming, just to skate whatever. Fun stuff.
All of this has been a really awesome side effect of Made 2 that I wasn’t even expecting. But all that energy being spent towards skating also means that it’s much more serious overall. Along with the lists, there are schedules. We're meeting at this time on this day, we’re doing this trick at this spot with this photographer. It’s not as spontaneous now. Because I still want to do things that are hard and film something worthwhile, there needs to be a process now as opposed to when you’re younger and shit just happens.
Is it more stressful as a kid going into the unknown or as a pro with so many great parts to live up to?
As far as “the unknown”, they’re actually both kind of the same. As a kid, everything is open and exciting compared to when you’re older and things are expected of you. Personal expectations and otherwise. There are personal demons you have to conquer. That can be less exciting but is probably more gratifying to conquer.
When you’re younger, you take that stuff for granted because it all comes so easily. But when you’re older, it takes more effort… blood, sweat or whatever. If I land a trick now that I’m proud of, I come home and celebrate a little. It’s something that I’ve put a lot of time and effort into.
That’s the difference between being young and not knowing versus being old and experienced. You are aware of what has happened previously while simultaneously trying to do it all again. You just can’t take anything for granted anymore.
Didn’t you film for Black Cat and The Storm at the same time? That’s like 8 minutes of footage in a year.
Yeah, just like I said, that just comes with being young and going out filming all the time. You go out with your friends and a camera and stuff happens. You just amass all this footage and at the end, it’s awesome. You just pick and choose where you want each thing to go.
Which part got the better stuff?
I’d say Black Cat because it was a time when board companies were much more important. Filming for your board sponsor was such a big deal so I definitely sent my best stuff to Maple. It’s funny because the Osiris people actually tried to buy clips off of me that they knew I was sending to Maple and I wouldn’t do it. Nope, not for sale. (laughs)
Skipping right past the Storm Flip, what was it like being part of that enormous Osiris team during that era?
I was always kind of an outsider on the team. That was basically when San Diego was an epicenter of skating but that style and aesthetic… I wouldn’t really call my thing. I was just happy to be sponsored really. To be a part of that group with all its successes was a total trip. It was a really crazy time and everyone kinda got swept up by the whole thing.
Part of the team was definitely delusional. All of a sudden being given so much and becoming famous really tweaked a lot of people on the team and at the company. They thought it was going to last forever. But I had my friends there and I rolled with it for like 10 years.
So even at such a young age, you never got caught up in the Kasparholic glory days? It seemed just as over-the-top from the inside as it did to everyone else?
I was young but I still knew how crazy and delusional Josh was. I actually kind picked on him a little bit because of the things that he’d do on tours. I don’t want to throw him under the bus too hard here but how he would go about these demos…I heard he was really influenced by pro wrestling and that made a lot of sense to me. He would apply that same mentality to his skating. Like, I know he would bail tricks on purpose at demos just to dramatize his skating. Ollieing off vert ramps and constantly trying to hype up the crowd, literally trying to get them to chant his name.
Sometimes he would get these kids foaming at the mouth and then not be able to do his trick or he would slam real bad. Everyone would just lower their heads like, “Oh man...”
Josh was an example of someone who was poisoned by “success”. I’m sure he’s much different now but referring to himself in the third-person back then… that was 100% a real thing.
Who would you say had your favorite part in the Storm?
This might surprise some people but I always really liked Chad Fernandez’ part. He was so gnarly. He did some really impressive things in there and I gotta hand it to him.
Never gets old. Why do you think Osiris and things like the D3 are so heavily ridiculed? It’s not like it existed in a vacuum and there were plenty of other things around just as goofy at the time.
I do think that it kinda deserved that ridicule. Osiris had this hip-hop/skate mentality, which is an easy target in a world like skateboarding. And there were definitely times where I was personally embarrassed by some of the things that the company or my teammates would do. Stuff like ollieing a DJ.
Meanwhile, you’re skating to Stereolab.
(laughs) Totally, and I’m pretty sure that wasn’t their first choice for me. I just figured since I kinda stuck out on the team already, I might as well go with music I liked.
I think the thing about Osiris is that they took themselves too seriously. It’s hard to put into words about what made Osiris kind of a goofy company but, at the same time, it’s totally obvious. It’s the mix of late 90’s San Diego, rap and skateboarding cultures. Osiris embodied those three things and sold a lot of shoes but left a lot of people wondering what the hell was going on. It’s easy to make fun of. It’s kind of silly in the same way something like hair metal, punk rock, stoner rock or riding motorcycles can be. Skaters just want to see skating and when there’s all this peripheral popular culture mixed in, it can be a real turn-off.
Plus, the money. They had so much money that good ideas took a backseat. When you don’t have to struggle to succeed, you can become complacent and start going with ideas that may not be the best. Throwing money at something doesn’t make it better. It has to be a good idea and maybe Osiris wasn’t coming up with the best ones.
We Kill Trees and Party. Jerry Don’t Surf. Hairdiaper Cameltoe. So many classics. What’s your all-time favorite Enjoi Ad?
Hairdiaper Cameltoe is pretty fucking sick. That one is very Marc Johnson. I like the found photo ads, too… like “Even your two dads love enjoi”. And my goodbye ad: It’s not you, it’s me. That was Louie’s idea.
There’s so many to choose from but Weiger’s backtail with this whole name on the bottom of the board… wow, that was genius. Wieger came up with that, Louie built the board and Matt designed the ad. So funny.
I also loved any ad satirizing the business side of skateboarding; the greedy pig mask ads or just things that expressed Matt’s mood at the time whenever the ads were due. Like one time, he just made an ad with a sinking ship on it because he was so frustrated.
Another one of my favorites is the Jake Phelps “Why Can’t My Boyfriend Skate?” ad, which caused a lot of controversy.
I remember Matt asking me beforehand, “Should I even do this?”
“I don’t know, man. You’re really going to hear about it with this one.”
One thing that always trips me out are all of the riders who came and went at Enjoi prior to Bag of Suck (Rodney, Puleo, Staba, Mayhew, MJ, etc.). Why was there such a high turnover in those early years? Did it make things hard for you to stick with the company or did each migration further enhance your role within?
Riders coming and going on a company like enjoi doesn’t really seem that weird to me at all. There were definitely a couple guys that got on that I was confused about to begin with. I mean, if Rodney or Marc wanted a kid on the team, they got on. But I think enjoi attracts a lot of weirdos and weirdos can just decide to quit one day out of the blue.
The only person who left that made a big impact was Marc, obviously. After that, my role got a little bigger but I just focused on skating and not all that other noise.
Talk a little about the proposed migration of the majority of Enjoi riders to a new company at Girl when MJ was first trying to leave. Do you remember any talk of this?
I don’t think that was a very realistic thing. It was nothing more than ideas and talk and wishful thinking. It was never seriously discussed.
Marc left because he didn’t work well at Dwindle. He didn’t like feeling that Dwindle had control over the company’s money and ideas. He’s a stubborn, highly-intelligent guy so when things aren’t really going the right way, he’s just gonna go, “I’m outta here,” and I back that.
He could leave and just be a professional skateboarder somewhere else. He didn’t want to run his own board company anymore and who can blame him? Running a company while being a pro skateboarder at the same time has to be very difficult. He’d just had a kid and was dealing with a lot of stuff. He needed to be somewhere that would take care of him. At Girl and Chocolate, that is very much the case.
I didn’t understand any of this at the time and I was honestly very upset when he left. It wasn’t until later that I started to understand.
But no, I remember the Enjoi-at-Girl thing being mentioned but it never really went further than that. Not seriously. I mean, I know Mike and Rick are fans but realistically, that wasn’t gonna happen.
Going back a little bit, weren’t you also rumored to be part of a proposed Phil Shao company prior to Enjoi as well? Dump Truck?
Yeah, that’s true. Phil was going to start up a new company right before he passed away. I remember having a meeting about it at Mark Whiteley’s house in Palo Alto where Phil told me all about what he wanted to do and who he wanted on the team. It sounded really cool but I had just turned pro for Maple and was very loyal to them. They had done so much for me.
I told Phil that I was going to think about it but honestly, I probably wasn’t going to do it. I definitely respected Phil to the utmost but I just couldn’t quit Maple at that time. It’s sad to think about because that was probably the last time I saw Phil.
So we gotta get into it: your 7-minute magnum opus that is Bag of Suck. Having not put out a part in a minute, did you go into this thinking that it was going to be your big statement? How long were you guys filming for that and were you ultimately happy with how it came out?
I was happy with how it all came out but I never planned for it to become anything. Usually a video starts by just going out filming for a bit. That goes on for a little while before you start to hear some rumblings. Maybe we’re making a video? It was never like, “Ok, today we’re going to start a video.” Maybe it’s more like that today.
I’d been putting stuff towards Bag of Suck for a long time. There’s footage in there from maybe 4 or 5 years out but it was weird because we were never really sure if we were even making a video for the longest time. It really wasn’t until the last year and a half or so that it became really serious. Like, we’re fucking doing this and I’m going out as much as I possibly can to do as much as I possibly can.
But no, it was never supposed to be this big statement-type thing. I only planned on doing my best. Trying as hard as I could. I didn’t have any other projects going on so there was nothing in the way for me. Like we talked about earlier, Black Cat and The Storm basically split my skate brain in two. This time I didn’t have to multi-task. When you have a singular focus, you skate harder. You can either do an ok job at two things or a really good job at one thing. Since there was no other thing I had to be responsible for, it came out better that way.
How’d that nollie backside heel at Lincoln ender-ender go down? Was that just you searching for a closer?
Not really. By that point, we were in the final month of the project and my entire part was basically done. Filming was over. I’d already tried that one earlier and was unable to land it.
It was basically a situation that happens between skaters and their filmer at the end of a long project where things can get tense. I went over to Matt Evs’ apartment as he was working on shit, just to check in on everything. I said something to the effect of, “I know you’re really stressed right now but do you need me to help with anything?”
He just turns to me and says, “Just go do that backside nollie heelflip.”
I was like, “What an asshole!”… but it really drove me to try it again.
It was literally the last day before Matt was to drive to LA and begin mastering the video at Dwindle. The last possible day and it was looking pretty dark, man. I was in a weird place. There was all this pressure. My heel was hurting. I was at the top of those stairs, just going full speed at them and I wasn’t even coming close at all. I wasn’t even catching it. And then, luckily, it just happened.
So amazing, man. But what about the intros in that one? Was that stuff fun to do? I know there’s that one shot by the pool where the phone is already dialed on 911, was that stuff really so sketchy to do?
Those were just fun little projects but no, I don’t think they were really that sketchy. But I liked them because they were creative analog titles and no one was really doing things like that at the time. I felt it was like a nod to that whole Tiltmode aesthetic; a very DIY approach. I’ve always felt that Enjoi was birthed out of the whole Tiltmode movement. Tiltmode was basically the mother of Enjoi.
We talked earlier about that Phelps ad. Be honest, and I know it’s kinda goofy, but you had to be a little bummed about not winning SOTY that year, right? I know it wasn’t as much of a thing then but you were definitely my choice.
(laughs) Thanks, man. But yeah, SOTY wasn’t like how it is now where people basically campaign for it. It’s kinda weird… like you’re trying to become the President of Skateboarding or something. At that point, it was starting to evolve into the campaign that it is now but it wasn’t quite there yet.
I’d heard through my friend Mark Whiteley, who worked at High Speed, that I was being considered for it. Of course, I was pretty shocked by that but I didn’t really know what to do with that information. I ended up making the decision to call Jake. I didn’t really want to but I figured I would regret it later if I didn’t at least ask. It’s often too easy to play that kind of stuff off. Downplaying things in order not to look dumb. I had to get over the fact that I actually wanted it.
Jake was very frank about everything. He was considering me for it but I hadn’t really been in Thrasher that much over the year, which was true. He basically told me that I wasn’t going to get it. That I had skated hard and definitely could’ve gotten it but I hadn’t played the game. I just didn’t know, there were no rules really at that point. Whether that really mattered or not, who knows. It would’ve been nice but it was an honor just to be considered.
From your 411 parts in class and in the Maple van through all the Tiltmode stuff and up to your Welcome to Chocolate ad, you’ve always had a flair for doing skits. Why is that? Would you ever consider acting or, I know you’re into photography, possibly directing short films in the future?
To be honest, most of those weren’t my idea. Skits are just a part of skate videos. People have been doing this stuff since Animal Chin and beyond. I don’t like acting at all but doing skits was just kind of effective, I guess. But wow, watching those old 411 skits is extremely painful.
I gotta ask about my all-time favorite, though, with the baseball bat and RailChomper2015 in Bonus Round. So amazing. Is that a response to anything in particular?
That was Matt Evs’ idea. People talking shit on the internet had just started to become so commonplace in skating, he wanted to comment on the whole situation and how shitty people can be. I felt the same way. It was really nothing specific on my end, Matt just happened to pick me for it…. though I do feel like I am sort of a target on the internet for some reason. I don’t really know why.
I remember the first time I read a really nasty comment about my skating on the internet. It was crippling and I probably didn’t get over it for like two years. “What a baby”, I know, but our brains have a bias towards negativity. Like if you receive 1 negative comment out of 100 postive ones, you’ll only think about the bad one. Like I said before, skaters are so insecure.
I also put a lot of personal stuff on the internet, like photography, and I feel people love to criticize that.
I know you’ve talked about the departure of Matt Evs having a large part in your own leaving of Enjoi but how did Chocolate come about? Were you actively looking and were there other options you were thinking about?
I really had no idea where I was gonna go when I decided to leave Enjoi. And it was at a time when my stock wasn’t exactly at its highest so I was scared. It was kind of a make-or-break moment for me. I had nothing planned and I didn’t really know what I was worth anymore. I didn’t know what people thought of me and if I actually had a chance anywhere else. Skateboarding can be pretty cold. It’s always been good to me but it can be unfair. I’ve definitely watched people around me just drop like flies and it’s really scary.
Someone I’ve always turned to over the years has been Marc. He got me on Maple. He got me on Enjoi. So I called him and explained what was going on. I am appreciative for all that he’s done for me in the past but I was wondering if there was a chance he could maybe help me out again.
“Of course, I will help you! I’m not going to promise you anything but I will put in a good word.”
It wasn’t easy for Mike and Rick to put me on as they had just turned Raven, Stevie and Elijah pro. Putting on another guy wasn’t easy for them but they made it happen. I couldn’t be more appreciative because I went from not even knowing if anybody would sponsor me at all to getting on Chocolate, which is something I thought could never happen.
I actually remember Alex Olson asking me if I’d like to ride for Chocolate years ago. I told him I was too involved with Enjoi at the time but was totally flattered.
Honestly, I really felt that I wasn’t worthy of riding for a company like that. It’s like the SOTY thing where I was afraid of rejection but I had to at least try. I had to ask. There were other offers, too, but they didn’t feel right.
How was Stay Flared? Combining Chocolate Jerry with Emerica Jerry had to be a breath of fresh air. What was the most surprising thing from the experience?
The most surprising thing about that tour is just how well it worked. Four vans, 2 teams and so many strong personalities on one trip with one goal… and it went swimmingly. So fun and so easy. It was awesome.
The teams got along so well together. And to be on a tour with that many legendary skaters, doing demos together, being a waiter’s worst nightmare together... It was amazing and I’m so thankful to have been part of that. Just waking up everyday and going into the parking lot where everyone is sitting around, talking and laughing together while Biebel’s doing push-ups. It was a wonderful.
Is there supposed to be a Beauty and the Beast-style video on the way with all that stuff?
Well, unfortunately in this day and age, there probably won’t be. There are the Thrasher episodes but it would be nice to have a physical thing like a long, cohesive video. It’s doubtful, though. It’s in Thrasher’s hands. There’s enough footage for it to be a full video but at the same time, I imagine Beauty and the Beast having a totally different feeling. Stay Flared was mostly just demos and street.
Good point. So what’s next, Jerry? I know you have Made 2 coming up but any other future plans, skating or otherwise?
Other than the next video, I’m also working on another art project with my photography. Just trying to explore and learn more about that. That’s the nice thing about being a skateboarder is that it affords me time to explore these other things. That’s always in the back of my mind. Whenever I’m not skating, that’s what I’m doing. That’s what is fun and rewarding to me, outside of skateboarding.
But to be honest, I’m so focused on this Made 2 project that I’m hardly even thinking about anything else.
Good to hear. Last question, all-time best San Jose skater?
Fuck! That’s a rough one to end on, man. That’s hard.
There’s no way to say who the all-time “best” is but I’m gonna give it to Mike Crabtree. It’s just one of those things where nobody knows how gnarly this human being is. He’s so raw and talented but so much went unrecorded. If you were lucky enough to see it firsthand, you know it happened. He’s legendary in San Jose and I have so much respect for him… in the same way that I have to mention Crazy Eddie here, too. Crazy Eddie is another one. He’s not a very documented skater. Barely anybody knows who he is but everytime I saw him skate, I was amazed. Casually fakie ollieing into bowls instead of dropping in… the type of skating where he’s in the middle of the air and you just know he’s about to die… and then he does it.
I figured you might go with one of those two but I’m stoked on your answer.
Yeah, those guys are obviously legendary skaters. Ray Barbee, too. But I have to give it to a guy like Crabtree for being so gnarly just for himself. Someone who doesn’t care about the money or the glory, just the thrill of doing it. You have to respect that.
Thanks to Mark Whiteley and Jerry for taking the time.